Don't Ask; Why Would You Tell?

As I promised yesterday we are going to venture into the land of Don't Ask, Don't Tell: a perspective from two Army Guys. Except that when I tried to get the two Army guys to have a serious discussion they decided it would be more fun to play devils advocate for each other. I'm all "Really Charley? Can't we talk about this for real?" and he was all "But we are, well, mostly."

Some background info on Trist: Born and raised in the Seattle area. Proudly announces that 1/3 of the population there is gay (edited: should read third largest population of gay people in the US of A, sorry Trist!!), and he loves the gays, and the rest of the country needs to pull it's head out of somewhere unpleasant and accept everyone.

Some background info on Charley: Born and raised in Montana. Mostly Conservative, but likes thinking outside the box. No problem with gays, wants me to have a gay bff to go shopping with and tell me how to dress. Can see both sides of almost every argument, likes to take the road less traveled. Likes to come up with ridiculous arguments and logics and then tell everyone else how un-enlightened they are for not seeing things his way, even when he knows he is wrong.

The TRUE issue with gay men in the military as agreed on by both Trist and Charley, well, at least for this discussion: Combat MOS's (mos= type of job or "military occupation specialty") tend to have a higher rate of jerks, bullies, and guys who didn't finish high school. Mostly meat heads who will tear anyone apart for any sign of weakness. Like a rabid dog after a bone. And I have heard stories people, mostly all of them exaggerated, but even the watered down version is scary. Now add in a gay male, even with what-ev protection the government comes up with. What do you get? A guy who is going to be hurting one way or the other. Cause combat guys aren't nice. Ever. Except the ones who are like Charley and Trist.

Serious issue right? Except from here we dissolved into the ridiculous.

See, Trist thinks that gay guys in combat MOS's would be AWESOME. And he wants one of them to fall madly in love with him, not cause he is gay or anything. More because if someone totes luvre him, then that person is the best guy around to be in a gunfight with. Cause that guy will do anything in his power to make sure Trist makes it out alive. Hmmm. Good reason to allow openly gay guys into he military? You tell me.

I interrupted at this point to ask about lesbians. Why were all the scenarios about gay MEN instead of including WOMEN??? The response? "Cause lesbians are cool, no one has a problem with lesbians." Really guys, really? Have you ever watched Work Out on Bravo? Jackie would kick your asses! Twice.

And, by now I should know not to bring females into the discussion, but I opened the can and Charley wasn't going to let me forget about it. His response to Trist's point of view? Thats why they don't allow women into combat mos. With all the love going on no one would think straight. And its not safe for the ladies, not cause they can't fight just like we do but cause they would have to spend a lot of their time fending off the advances of the guys in the unit.

He continues: And if we are going to let gay men flaunt about openly then everything needs to be co-ed. Co-ed MOS's, co-ed units (which there already are, just not combat ones), co-ed showers.

Halt. Excuse me? Co-ed showers? Where the heck did that come from? He says co-ed showers are the same thing as having gay males in the shower. I object. It is not at all the same. There will be no co-edness in the shower happening while I'm around.

Charley spend the rest of the evening trying to convince me of this co-ed shower thing. I maintain that it is not at all the same, and if the military really tried to make things co-ed they would step into the realm of womens right, sexual harassment, and any number of badness acts. There is a reason that females are not allowed in combat mos's. And those reasons don't disappear because someone comes out of the closet. But he says I'm biased.

Yeah, see what I mean about the whole "descending into chaos" that happens every time I try to have an intellectual discussion? Ridiculous. So I am calling on you Internet. Help me come up with arguments against Charley's co-ed shower theory. Because he thinks I am biased, and maybe I am a little, but it feels like wrongness. Badness. Worrisome.

And he is talking me in circles again and I can't keep my arguments straight when he does that. Give me fuel for my fire. Help me talk some sense into this man.